


Euthyphro

by Pleonastica



Series: Philosophy Through Fiction [1]
Category: Dialogues - Plato, Percy Jackson and the Olympians & Related Fandoms - All Media Types, Percy Jackson and the Olympians - Rick Riordan, The Heroes of Olympus - Rick Riordan
Genre: Gen, It's not boring I promise, Philosophy, Philosophy Through Fiction, plato - Freeform
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2016-02-29
Updated: 2016-02-29
Packaged: 2018-05-23 20:43:33
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 6,432
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/6129487
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Pleonastica/pseuds/Pleonastica
Summary: <blockquote class="userstuff">
              <p>Socrates (Chiron) explores the nature of piety with the religious expert Euthyphro (Percy).</p>
            </blockquote>





	Euthyphro

**Author's Note:**

> Disclaimer: Percy Jackson & the Olympians does not to me as the series and the sequel series The Heroes of Olympus rightfully belong to Rick Riordan.

**_Euthyphro_ **

Characters:   CHIRON as Socrates

                    PERCY as Euthyphro

                    OCTAVIAN as Meletus

Setting:         Pathway on Olympus leading up to Zeus’ palace.

 

* * *

 

PERCY: Hey, Chiron! Why are you here up on Olympus? You’re not suing someone like I am, right?

CHIRON: I think people would call my case charging rather than suing, Percy.

PERCY: What? Someone must be charging you, because you wouldn’t charge someone else.

CHIRON: You’re right.

PERCY: So someone is charging you?

CHIRON: Yes.

PERCY: Who?

CHIRON: I don’t know him personally, Percy. He’s young and not that popular. I think his name is Octavian. He’s from the Roman camp, if you know anyone called Octavian, with short hair, somewhat scrawny, and an interesting nose. 

PERCY: I don’t know him, Chiron. What’s he charging you for?

CHIRON: For what? A not dishonorable charge, I think, because it’s nothing small for a young man to be knowledgeable in such an important area. He claims to know how our young are corrupted and who corrupts them. He’s probably wise, and when he sees my ignorance corrupting his friends, he accuses me before Olympus as if he were telling on me to his mother. I think he’s the only demigod to begin his career right, because it’s right to take care of the young so they’re as good as possible, just like a farmer probably would take care of the young plants first and the older ones later. Same goes for Octavian to get rid of those who ruin the young plants, like he claims, and then he’ll take care of the older ones and be a source of blessings for Olympus, which is likely for someone who starts his career the way he did.

PERCY: I wish this were true, Chiron, but I’m worried the opposite might happen. It looks to me like he’s starting his career by harming the heart of Olympus by trying to charge you. Tell me, what does he claim you do to corrupt the young?

CHIRON: Weird things, to hear him say it, because he says that I create fictional gods, and on the basis that I create new gods without believing in our old ones, he’s charged me on the old gods’ behalf.

PERCY: I get it, Chiron. It’s because you keep saying that the divine sign1 appears to you. So he’s written this charge against you as someone who makes up things in religion, and he goes to court to slander you, knowing that things like these are easy to manipulate the jury with. I’m going through the same thing. Whenever I talk about religion to the jury and prophesize the future, they laugh at me like I’m crazy; however, I’ve predicted nothing that didn’t happen. Regardless, they’re jealous of anyone who’s able to do what we do. We shouldn’t worry about them and just tackle things head-on.

CHIRON: My dear Percy, maybe it doesn’t matter whether you’re mocked, because immortals and demigods don’t really mind anyone they think is witty, as long as they’re not teaching their wisdom, but if they think the witty person makes others act like that person then they get upset, whether through jealousy, like you said, or for another reason.

PERCY: I definitely don’t want to test their feelings toward me about this.

CHIRON: Maybe it’s because you appear to not be so public, and not willing to teach your wisdom, but I’m afraid that me being a social person makes immortals and demigods think that I tell everything that I have to say to anybody I meet, not only for free but even happily rewarding anyone who listens. After that if they want to laugh at me, like you say they do to you, it’d be fun for them to spend their time in court laughing and mocking me, but if they’re serious, the outcome is unknown except to prophets like you.

PERCY: Maybe it’ll end up as nothing, Chiron, and you’ll argue your case the best you can, like I will with mine.

CHIRON: What are you suing for, Percy? Are you the defendant or prosecutor?

PERCY: The prosecutor.

CHIRON: Who are you prosecuting?

PERCY: Someone who people call me crazy for prosecuting.

CHIRON: Are you going after someone who can easily run from you?

PERCY: Not really, he’s pretty old.

CHIRON: Then who?

PERCY: My stepdad.2

CHIRON: Woah! Your own dad?

PERCY: Stepdad, but yes.

CHIRON: For what? What is this suit about?

PERCY: Murder, Chiron.

CHIRON: My gods! Of course, Percy, most wouldn’t know whether they could go through with this and feel justified. This isn’t something that just anyone can do, but only for someone who is extremely wise.

PERCY: Yes, by the gods, Chiron, that’s how it seems.

CHIRON: So is the person your stepdad killed one of your relatives? Or is that obvious, because you wouldn’t prosecute your own stepdad for murdering a stranger.

PERCY: That’s funny, Chiron, that you think it makes a difference whether the victim is a stranger or a relative. The only thing that matters is whether the killer was justified; if so, let him go, and if not, you should prosecute, even if the killer lives and eat with you. You’re just as guilty if you knowingly continue to live with the killer if you don’t cleanse yourself and bring them to justice. The victim was a servant of mine, and when we were living in New York City was a servant of ours. He killed one of our other servants while drunk, so my stepdad tied the servant up hand and feet and threw him in a ditch, my stepdad sending word to Olympus to ask a priest what he should do. In the time it took for the message to be sent and return, my stepdad didn’t care if the servant died, which he did. He died from starvation, frostbite, and loss of blood flow before the message came back from the priest. My stepdad and his family are angry that I’m prosecuting him for murder on the behalf of a murderer when my stepdad didn’t even kill him, they say, and even if he did, the dead servant doesn’t deserve justice, since he was a killer. They tell me it’s unholy for a son, even a step-son, to prosecute his dad for murder. But their attitudes on what’s holy and unholy are misguided, Chiron.

CHIRON: So you’re saying, Percy, is that you think your understanding of religion and what is holy and unholy is so clear that, when something like what happened to you comes, you’re not afraid of being unholy by prosecuting your stepdad?

PERCY: I’d be useless, Chiron, and Percy wouldn’t be better than others, if I wasn’t clear about these things.

CHIRON: It’s of utmost importance, admirable Percy, that I become your pupil, and as for my charge, to challenge Octavian about these things and say: in the past I also thought religion to be the most important thing, and now that he calls me guilty of making up religious things about the gods you’ve taken me as your student. I’d tell him, “If, Octavian, you’d say Percy is wise about religion, then think of me as the same way and drop your charges against me. If not, then prosecute my teacher, not me, for corrupting the older people, me and his own stepdad, by teaching me and by prosecuting his stepdad.” If he isn’t convinced, and doesn’t drop my charges or goes after you instead, I’ll repeat the same challenge during trial.

PERCY: Yes, by the gods, Chiron, and, if he tries to come after me, I think I’d be able to find his weaknesses and the trial would focus on him, not me.

CHIRON: It’s because of this that I really want to be your student, my friend. I know that others including Octavian don’t even notice you, yet he sees me so well that he charges me for ungodliness. So tell me, by the gods, what it is you said you clearly knew: what kind of thing would you say godliness and ungodliness are, both regarding murder and other things; or is what is holy3 not the same in everything, and the unholy the opposite of all that is holy and the same as itself, and everything that is unholy comes to us with one Form or appearance because it is unholy?

PERCY: Of course, Chiron.

CHIRON: Then tell me, what is the holy, and the unholy, that you’d say are?

PERCY: I’d say that the holy is to do what I’m doing now, to prosecute the criminal, whether they’re a murderer or thief or something else, whether the criminal is your dad or your mom or anyone else; to not prosecute is unholy. And see, Chiron, that I can refer to strong evidence because that’s what the laws say. I’ve already told others that these things are correct, and to not worship the ungodly, whoever they are. These people believe that Zeus is the best and most just of the gods, but also agree that he captured his father because he unjustly ate his children, and that Zeus’ father castrated _his_ faster for something similar. But these people are angry with me because I’m prosecuting my stepdad for his crime. They’re hypocrites in what they say about the gods and about me. 

CHIRON: Yes, Percy, this is why I’m the defendant, because I think it’s hard to believe things that are said like that about the gods, and that’s probably why I’m told I do wrong. Now, though, if you, who are an expert in these things, share their views, then we must agree with them, too, I think. Because what can we say, when we agree that we ourselves have no knowledge about them? Tell me, by the god of friendship, do you really think these stories are true?

PERCY: Yes, Chiron, and even more surprising things, most of which others don’t know.

CHIRON: And do you believe that there’s war among the gods, and horrible acts and battles, and other things that are told by the poets, and other sacred stories such as are told by writers and by symbols such as the robe that Athena’s statue wears in Greece?4 Are we to agree these things are true, Percy?

PERCY: Not just these, Chiron, but, like I mentioned earlier, I can, if you want, tell you many more things about the gods that will amaze you.

CHIRON: I wouldn’t be surprised, but you’ll tell me these another day. For now, try to tell me what I was asking for, because, my friend, you didn’t tell me just exactly what holiness was when I asked, but told me that what you’re doing now, prosecuting your stepdad for murder, is holy.

PERCY: I told you the truth, Chiron.

CHIRON: Maybe. But you agree that there are other holy acts.

PERCY: There are.

CHIRON: Keep in mind that I didn’t ask for one or two of the many holy actions but the Form itself that makes all holy actions holy, because you agreed that all unholy actions are unholy and all holy actions holy by one Form, or did you forget?

PERCY: I remember.

CHIRON: Then tell me what this Form itself is, so that I can look at it and, using it as a rubric, say that any action of yours or another’s of that kind is holy, and if it is not that it’s unholy.

PERCY: If that’s how you want it, Chiron, then that’s how I’ll tell you.

CHIRON: That’s how I want it.

PERCY: Then, what is dear to the gods is holy, and what isn’t is unholy.

CHIRON: Excellent, Percy! Now you’ve answered the way I wanted. Whether your answer is true, I don’t know yet, but you’ll obviously show me that what you say is true.

PERCY: Of course.

CHIRON: So then, let’s examine what we mean. An action or person dear to the gods is holy, but an action or person hated by the gods is unholy. Those aren’t the same, but very opposite, the holy and unholy. Is that right?

PERCY: Yes, indeed.

CHIRON: And that seems to be a sufficient statement?

PERCY: I think so, Chiron.

CHIRON: We’ve also said that the gods are constantly disagreeing, that they fight with each other, Percy, and that they sometimes act badly toward each other. Hasn’t that also been said?

PERCY: It has.

CHIRON: What are the reasons of difference that cases hatred and anger? Let’s look at it this way. If you and I were to disagree about numbers on which is bigger, would this disagreement make us enemies and angry with each other, or would we just count them up and quickly settle the disagreement about this?

PERCY: We definitely would.

CHIRON: Again, if we disagreed about what was bigger or smaller, we would simply measure and stop disagreeing.

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: And about heavier and lighter things, we would put them on a scale and settle it.

PERCY: Yeah.

CHIRON: What would we disagree on that makes us angry and hostile toward each other if we’re unable to reach a decision? Maybe you don’t have an answer ready, but think of this as I tell you whether the disagreements would come from the just and unjust, the beautiful and the ugly, the good and the bad. Aren’t these disagreements about which, when we are unable to reach a satisfactory decision, you and I and others become hostile to each other when we do?

PERCY: Those are the disagreements, Chiron, that cause hostility.

CHIRON: What about the gods, Percy? If they, too, have disagreements, won’t they be about the same things?

PERCY: Of course, that’s how it is.

CHIRON: Then, according to you, my good Percy, different gods think different things are just, beautiful, ugly, good, and bad, because they wouldn’t be at odds with one another unless they disagreed about these things, right?

PERCY: Right.

CHIRON: And they like what each of them thinks is beautiful, good, and just, and hate the opposites of these?

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: But you said that the same things considered just by some gods are unjust by others, and as they argue about these things they are fighting each other. Isn’t that the case?

PERCY: It is.

CHIRON: The same things then are loved by the gods and hated by the gods, so they’re both god-loved and god-hated.

PERCY: That’s likely, yeah.

CHIRON: And the same things would be both holy and unholy, according to this argument?

PERCY: I’m afraid so.

CHIRON: So you didn’t answer my question, you sneaky boy. I didn’t ask what was both holy and unholy, and now it seems that what’s loved by the gods is also hated by them. So it’s not surprising if your current action, specifically the suit against your stepdad, may be liked by Zeus but not liked by Kronos or Ouranos, liked by Hephaestus but not liked by Hera, and so on with any gods who disagree with each other on this subject.

PERCY: I think, Chiron, that regarding holiness no gods would disagree that anyone who kills someone without a good reason should pay the price.

CHIRON: Well, Percy, have you ever heard of a time when someone who’s killed or done something else unjustly that they should _not_ be punished?

PERCY: They never stop arguing about this, both anywhere else and here at the court, because when they commit crime they do and say anything to not be punished.

CHIRON: Do they agree they’ve committed crimes and after that say they shouldn’t be punished?

PERCY: No, they don’t agree on that.

CHIRON: So they don’t say or do just anything. Because they don’t dare say that, or argue that if they’ve committed a crime they shouldn’t be punished, but I think that they deny committing a crime in the first place. Or am I wrong?

PERCY: That’s true.

CHIRON: Then they don’t argue whether the criminal must be punished, but they might argue who the criminal is, what he did, and when.

PERCY: Right.

CHIRON: Don’t the gods do the same thing, if they really disagree about what’s just and unjust, as you claimed? Some people say they committed a crime, while others deny it, but no god or man dares to say that the criminal must not be punished.

PERCY: Yeah, that’s true, Chiron, regarding the main topic of this discussion.

CHIRON: And to the people that disagree, whether men or gods, they argue about every action, if it’s true the gods disagree. Some say it’s done justly, while others say unjustly. Or am I wrong?

PERCY: No, that’s right.

CHIRON: Come then, my dear Percy, tell me, too, so I can get wiser, what your evidence is that all the gods think that man to have been killed unjustly who became a murderer while in your service, was tied up by the master of his victim, and died while tired before the master could hear from the priest what should be done with him, and that it’s right for his son to denounce and prosecute his father on behalf of such a man. Please, try to show me clearly that all the gods definitely believe this action to be right. If you can prove it enough, I will never stop worshiping your wisdom.

PERCY: This isn’t an easy thing to do, Chiron, but I can make it crystal clear for you.

CHIRON: I know you think I’m not as sharp as the jury, because you’ll obviously show them that these actions were unjust and that the gods unanimously hate actions like those.

PERCY: I’ll show it to them clearly, Chiron, if they choose to listen to me.

CHIRON: They’ll listen if they think you explain it well. But as you were talking this thought came to me, and I’m thinking about it, saying to myself: “If Percy can show me without a doubt that all of the gods think this murder is unjust, what more will I have learned from him about the nature of holiness and unholiness? This action would then, it seems, be hated by the gods, but what is holy and unholy haven’t been defined yet, because what is hated by the gods also looks to be loved by them.” So I won’t focus on that point; let’s assume, if you want, that every god considers this unjust and that they all hate it. However, is this the correction we’re making in our discussion, that what every god hates is unholy, and what they all love is holy, and that what some of the gods love and the others hate is neither or both? Is that how you now want us to define holiness and unholiness?

PERCY: What’s stopping us from saying that, Chiron?

CHIRON: For me nothing, Percy, but you should see whether this proposal will help you to most easily teach me what you said you would.

PERCY: I’d certainly say that holiness is what every god loves, and the opposite, what every god hates, is unholiness.

CHIRON: Then let’s question again whether that’s a logical claim, or should we let it slip by, and if one of us, or someone else, simply says that something _is_ , do we accept that _it_ is? Or should we question what the speaker means?

PERCY: We must question it, but I definitely think that this claim is great.

CHIRON: We’ll know soon whether it actually is. Think: Is the holy being loved by the gods because it is holy, or is it holy because it is being loved by the gods?

PERCY: I don’t understand, Chiron.

CHIRON: I’ll try to explain it better: we talk of something carried and something carrying, of something led and something leading, of something seen and something seeing, and you realize that these things are all different from each other and how they’re different?

PERCY: I think I do.

CHIRON: So there’s also something loved and (a different thing) something loving.

PERCY: Duh.

CHIRON: Then tell me whether the thing carried is a carried thing because it is being carried, or is it that way due to something else?

PERCY: No, that’s the reason.

CHIRON: And the thing led is so because it’s being led, and the thing seen because it’s being seen?

PERCY: Definitely.

CHIRON: It’s not being seen because it’s a thing seen but on the reverse side it’s a thing seen because it’s being seen; nor is it because it’s something led that it’s being led but because it’s being led that it’s something led; nor is something being carried because it’s something carried, but it’s something carried because it’s being carried. Is what I’m saying clear, Percy? I want to say this, especially, that if anything is being changed or is being affected in any way, it’s not being changed because it’s something changed, but rather it’s something changed because it’s being changed; nor is it being affected because it’s something affected, but it’s something affected because it’s being affected. Or do you disagree?

PERCY: I agree.

CHIRON: Is something loved either something changed or something affected by something?

PERCY: Definitely.

CHIRON: So it’s the same case as what we just said; it’s not being loved by those who love it because it’s loved, but it’s something loved because it’s being loved by them?

PERCY: Absolutely.

CHIRON: Then what do we say about what’s holy, Percy? Surely that it’s being loved by every god, according to what you’re saying?

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: Is it loved because it’s holy, or for something else?

PERCY: No, that’s why.

CHIRON: It’s being loved then because it’s holy, but it’s not holy because it’s being loved?

PERCY: Apparently.

CHIRON: But it’s also something loved and god-loved because it’s being loved by the gods?

PERCY: Duh.

CHIRON: Then the god-loved isn’t the same as holiness, Percy, nor holiness the same as the god-loved, like you say it is, but that they’re different from each other.

PERCY: How, Chiron?

CHIRON: Because we agreed that the holy is being loved for this reason, that it’s holy, but it’s not holy because it’s being loved. Isn’t that right?

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: And that the god-loved, on the other hand, is god-loved because it’s being loved by the gods, by fact of being loved, but it’s not being loved because it’s god-loved.

PERCY: True.

CHIRON: But if the god-loved and the holy were the same, my dear Percy, then if the holy was being loved because it was holy, the god-loved would also be being loved because it was god-loved; and if the god-loved was god-loved because it was being loved by the gods, then the holy would also be holy because it was being loved by the gods. But now you’re seeing that they’re opposites as being completely different from each other: one is to be loved because it’s being loved, while the other is being loved because it is loved. I’m afraid, Percy, that when you were asked what holiness was, you didn’t want to explain its nature clearly to me, but you told me an affect or a quality of it, that the holy has the quality of being loved by every god, but you still haven’t told me what holiness is. Now, if you want, don’t hide things from me but tell me again from the beginning what holiness is, whether it’s being loved by the gods or having some other quality—we won’t argue about that—but be focused on telling me what holiness and unholiness are.

PERCY: But Chiron, I don’t know how to tell you what I’m thinking, because whatever idea we say it might be keeps moving around and doesn’t stay where we put it.

CHIRON: Your claims, Percy, seem like they belong to my old friend, Daedalus.5 If I were making the claims and arguing for them, you might very well be making fun of me and saying that because of my being friends with him my claims in our discussion run away and won’t stay where we put them. Since they’re your claims, however, we need some other joke, because they won’t stay still for you, like you say.

PERCY: I think the same joke will work for our discussion, Chiron, because I’m not the one who makes them go around and not stay still; it’s you who is Daedalus; because as far as I’m concerned they would stay where they were.

CHIRON: It seems as if I were smarter than Daedalus for using my skill, my friend, as much as he could only make the things he made himself to move, but I can make other people’s things move including my own. And the smartest part of my skill is that I’m smart without wanting to be, because I’d rather have your claims to me stay still than have the wealth of Tantalus as well as the intelligence of Daedalus. Since I think you’re making things harder than they can be, I’m as eager as you are to find a way to teach me about holiness, and for you to not give up before you do teach me. Think about whether you think holiness must necessarily also be just.

PERCY: I think so.

CHIRON: Then is all that’s just holy? Or is all that’s holy just, but not all that’s just holy, but some justness is holy and some isn’t?

PERCY: I don’t get what you’re saying, Chiron.

CHIRON: But you’re as younger to me as you are wiser to me. As I said, you’re making this harder than it has to be because of how wise you are. Pull yourself together, Percy, what I’m saying isn’t hard to understand. I’m saying the opposite of what the poet says:

_You don’t want to blame Zeus, who did it, and who made everything grow, because where there’s fear there’s also shame._ 6

I don’t agree with the poet. Want me to tell you why?

PERCY: Please do.

CHIRON: I don’t think that “where there’s fear there’s also shame,” because I think that a lot of people who fear sickness and poverty and other similar things are afraid, but they’re not ashamed of the things they’re afraid of. Don’t you agree?

PERCY: Yeah, I do.

CHIRON: But where there’s shame there’s also fear. Because is there anyone who, feeling ashamed or embarrassed by anything, isn’t also afraid and scared of a reputation for being evil?

PERCY: He’s definitely afraid.

CHIRON: Then it’s not right to say “where there’s fear there’s also shame,” but that where there’s shame there’s also fear, because fear encompasses more than shame. Shame is a part of fear as much as odds are a part of numbers, the same going for it being a lie to say that where there are numbers there also odds, but it’s true to say that where there are odds there are also numbers. Do you understand me now?

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: This is what I was asking for before, whether where there’s holiness there’s also justice, but where there’s justice there’s not always holiness, because holiness is a part of justice. Do we want to say that, or do you think it’s the opposite?

PERCY: No, what you said seems to be right.

CHIRON: Look what comes next: if what’s holy is a part of the just, we must, then, find out what part of the just it is. Now if you asked me something about what we just talked about, like what part of numbers are even, I’d say they’re the numbers that can be divided into two equal, not unequal, parts. Or don’t you think so?

PERCY: I do.

CHIRON: Then in this way try to tell me what part of the just the holy is, in order to tell Octavian to stop slandering us and not to charge me for ungodliness, since I’ve learned from you enough about what’s godly and holy and what isn’t.

PERCY: I think, Chiron, that the godly and holy is the part of justice that regards taking care of the gods, while what regards taking care of humans is the rest of justice.

CHIRON: It sounds to me like you worded that very well, but I still need a little bit more information. I still don’t know what you mean by taking care of, because you don’t mean the taking care of the gods in the same way as taking care of other things, such as, for example, us saying that not everyone knows how to take care of horses, but that horse breeders do.

PERCY: Yeah, I do mean it like that.

CHIRON: So horse breeding is the taking care of horses.

PERCY: Yeah.

CHIRON: Nor does everyone know how to take care of dogs, but the hunter does.

PERCY: Yup, like that.

CHIRON: So hunting is the taking care of dogs.

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: And cattle raising is the taking care of cattle.

PERCY: Indeed.

CHIRON: While holiness and godliness is the taking care of the gods, Percy. Is that what you mean?

PERCY: It is.

CHIRON: Now “taking care of” in each case has the same outcome; it aims at the good and benefit of the thing being taken care of, as you can see that horses cared for by horse breeders are benefitted and become better. Or not?

PERCY: That’s right.

CHIRON: So dogs are benefitted by dog breeding, cattle by cattle raising, and so on with other things. Or do you think that taking care of something is intended to harm what’s being cared for?

PERCY: Gods, no.

CHIRON: It intends to benefit what’s being cared for?

PERCY: Duh.

CHIRON: Is holiness then, which is the taking care of the gods, also to benefit the gods and make them better? Would you agree that when you do something holy you make one of the gods better?

PERCY: Gods, no.

CHIRON: Nor do I think that this is what you mean—definitely not that—but that’s why I asked what you meant by taking care of the gods, because I didn’t think you meant that kind of taking care of.

PERCY: You’re right, Chiron, that isn’t the kind of taking care of I meant.

CHIRON: Great, but what kind of taking care of the gods would holiness be?

PERCY: The kind of taking care of, Chiron, that servants take care of their masters.

CHIRON: Now I understand. It’s probably like a service to the gods.

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: Can you tell me what the goal of the services doctors do is? Isn’t it, don’t you think, for healthiness?

PERCY: I think so.

CHIRON: What about a shipbuilder’s service? What is its goal?

PERCY: Clearly, Chiron, it’s to build a ship.

CHIRON: And the housebuilder’s service to building a house?

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: Tell me then, Percy, what’s the goal of the services to the gods? You obviously know since you say that you, out of everyone, are the most knowledgeable about divinity.

PERCY: And I’m telling the truth, Chiron.

CHIRON: Tell me then, by the gods, what’s the great goal that the gods get, using humans as their servants?

PERCY: A lot of wonderful things, Chiron.

CHIRON: So do military generals, Percy. Regardless you could easily tell me their main goal, which is to get victory in war, right?

PERCY: Of course.

CHIRON: The farmers, too, I think, get a lot of wonderful things, but the main goal of their farming is to get food.

PERCY: Yes.

CHIRON: Well then, how would you put together all the wonderful things the gods get?

PERCY: I told you a few minutes ago, Chiron, that it’s hard to know exactly what these things are, but at a basic level, I’d say that if someone knows how to say and do what pleases the gods at prayer and sacrifice, those are holy acts like preserving your own home and the affairs of a country. The opposite of these acts are unholy and destroy everything.

CHIRON: You could’ve said in less words, if you wanted, what I asked for, Percy, but you’re not willing to teach me, that much is clear. You were about to, but you stopped. If you’d told me, I would’ve understood enough about what holiness is. As it happens, the lover of questions must follow what he loves no matter where it takes him. Again then, what are you saying that holiness and the holy are? Are they knowing how to sacrifice and pray?

PERCY: They are.

CHIRON: Sacrificing is gifting something to the gods, whereas praying is begging to them?

PERCY: Definitely, Chiron.

CHIRON: So what you’re saying by this claim is that holiness is knowledge of how to give to, and beg from, the gods.

PERCY: You understood very well, Chiron.

CHIRON: That’s because I really want to be as wise as you, and I’m focusing my mind on it, so that nothing you say will go in one ear and out the other. But tell me, what do you mean by service to the gods? You say it’s to beg from and give to them?

PERCY: I do.

CHIRON: And begging correctly is to ask for things we need?

PERCY: What else would there be?

CHIRON: And giving correctly is to give them what they need from us, because it wouldn’t be useful to bring gifts to anyone that aren’t needed.

PERCY: True, Chiron.

CHIRON: Holiness then is a kind of trading skill between gods and humans?

PERCY: Trading yeah, if that’s what you want to call it.

CHIRON: I don’t want anything unless it’s the truth. But tell me, what benefit do the gods get from the gifts they get from us? What they give us is obvious to everyone. There is nothing we get from them that isn’t good, but how are they benefitted from what they get from us? Or do we have that much of an advantage over them in the trade that we get all of our blessings from them and they get nothing from us?

PERCY: Do you think, Chiron, that the gods are benefitted by what they get from us?

CHIRON: What could those gifts to them be, Percy?

PERCY: What else but honor, worship, and what I just said, to please them?

CHIRON: The holy is then, Percy, pleasing to the gods, but not beneficial or important to them?

PERCY: I think it’s of all things what’s most important to them.

CHIRON: So what’s holy is again what’s important to the gods.

PERCY: Definitely.

CHIRON: When you say this, are you going to be surprised if your arguments move around instead of staying still? And are you going to accuse me of being Daedalus by making them move, though you’re yourself a lot more skilled than Daedalus and make the arguments go around in a circle? Or do you not realize that our argument has moved around and finished where it started? You must remember that earlier the holy and the god-loved were shown to not be the same but different from each other. Don’t you remember?

PERCY: I do.

CHIRON: Don’t you realize that now you’re saying that what’s important to the gods is holy? Isn’t this the same thing as the god-loved? Or isn’t it?

PERCY: It definitely is.

CHIRON: Either we were wrong when we agreed earlier, or, if we were right before, then we’re wrong now.

PERCY: That seems to be the case.

CHIRON: So we must ask again from the beginning what holiness is, because I won’t willingly give up before I know what it is. Don’t think I’m unworthy, but focus your attention and tell me the truth. Because you know it, if anyone does, and I can’t let you go before you tell me. If you didn’t have a clear understanding of holiness and unholiness you would’ve never gone to prosecute your stepdad for murder on the behalf of a servant. Because of fear you would’ve been too afraid to take the risk unless you weren’t acting justly, and you would’ve been ashamed by everyone else, but now I know that you think you have a clear understanding of holiness and unholiness. So tell me, my good Percy, and don’t hide what you think it is.

PERCY: Another time, Chiron, because I’m in a hurry, and it’s time for me to go.

CHIRON: I can’t believe you’re doing this, my friend! By leaving you’ve eliminated any hope I had, that I’d learn from you what holiness and unholiness are so I could get Octavian to drop his charges by showing him that I learned about the divine from Percy, and my lack of understanding wouldn’t be the cause for me to be careless and inventive about such things, and that I’d be better for the rest of my life.

**Footnotes**

  1. Under Plato and Xenophon, Socrates always speaks about his divine sign/voice intervening to prevent him from doing or saying something, but never positively.
  2. Here it is written as Percy’s stepdad, Gabe Ugliano, not Paul Blofis. However, in the original dialogue, it is Euthyphro’s actual father that he’s prosecuting, and his family is upset with him for prosecuting him.
  3. To keep it simple, it is written here and throughout as “holy,” “holiness,” “unholy,” and “unholiness.” However, the original word is _Eusebia_ , which translates to “piety,” and _Dyssebia_ , or “impiety.” _Eusebia_ encompassed “the ideal which dictated how men and women interacted, how a master should speak to a slave, how one addressed a seller in the marketplace as well as how one conducted oneself toward the gods.”
  4. The Parthenon, the temple of Athena, was situated on the Acropolis, the huge rocky outcropping in the center of Athens that served as the capital for Attica and the center of its religious culture. Every four years a festival in Athena’s honor was thrown where maidens brought up the ceremonial robe referred here, which clothed the statue.
  5. For the purposes of fitting it to the _Percy Jackson_ universe, Daedalus is written as Chiron’s old friend. However, in the _Euthyphro_ , Socrates’s (who plays Chiron here) ancestor is Daedalus. Socrates may have been a stonemason, since in Greek mythology, Daedalus’ wooden statues could move themselves.
  6. The author here is unknown.



**Bibliography**

Mark, J. J. (2012, January 18). Plato's Euthyphro: Piety and Pretension. Retrieved February 25, 2016, from <http://www.ancient.eu/article/54/>

(2002). Five Dialogues (2nd ed.) (G. M. Grube, Trans.; J. M. Cooper, Ed.). Indianapolis, IN: Hackett Pub.  
 _Euthyphro_

**Author's Note:**

> If you enjoyed this, let me know! I intend on transposing more dialogues into forms like this, but whether I go through with it will depend on the feedback I get. This is a philosophical work written by Plato, and is meant to encourage the questioning of what we take for granted, such as our beliefs.


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